Curse

TheHaxor · Apr 30, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

1. Rt/X - you can choose wutever other secondary you want to help compliment your team. You certainly can't do this if Rt is your secondary.

That is a stupid argument. Every class gets that bonus as being a primary. People use their secondary for speed boosts in GvG, so it would be pretty stupid to go A/Rt or E/Rt for 1-2 low spec skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

2. N/Rt is for mindless restoration spam which can be outdone by any decent human monk. It's only run because goldfish exceed heros in terms of intelligence and probably emanagement if goldfish could play guild wars.

The N/Rt is run in spiritway because of NR/Tranq and because soul reaping is a way better primary attribute. It is run in spike builds because soul reaping can be used as an unbelievable energy source and the necro line can be utilized for spike support. It is run in heroway because necro heroes can play those builds more effectively than they can monk builds and again because soul reaping is superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

3. Being a primary rit can allow you to use their runes and get an att up to 14.

Same thing as your first point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

For the record, Rits are still in GvG being the runner and they still provide support roles.

No, they are run in GvG because of weapons and ancestor's rage. If those skills weren't strong people would run eles instead.

As this is the PvP forums, I completely ignored your argument about PvE. Besides, I can't even remember the last time I ran a rit for spirits in any sort of PvE. The groups I've been in run them for splinter and ancestor's rage with some party heal, if they run them at all.

As for the off-topic necromancer comment, necromancy deals with the "black arts." I would consider everything a necro does (exploiting corpses, hexes, saccing, life steal, etc.) to be a part of the "black arts." While not as popular now, corpse control was very popular in the past. You still see it in high end PvP (putrid explosion, minions in heroway, wells).

zling · Apr 30, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

for the record the fact that Rits serve as Flag Runners shows all the flaws of the Rit class!
2 entirely useless attributes, Spawning and Communing with 2 attributes with overpowered and used to be broken until toned down a bit skills: Weapon of Warding, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage.
the Rit only has like 3 maybe 4 viable elites: Weapon of Warding, Offering of Spirit, Caretaker's Charge(?), Attuned was Songkai(?)
anything else is just sub par...
also the Rit is designed to be a very versatile class, the fact that it can only function 1 role(Splinter+Ancestor's damage support) just tells it all...

Melody Cross · May 01, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

If you insist on doing this, fine.

Spirits have proven a largely bad idea in PvP and less effective than other builds at pumping pressure in PvE. There are, ofc, exceptions to this rule but by and large the passive support that most spirits give is toned down to prevent defense webs from taking half an hour or more to break, and the randomness of their attacks makes any pressure offense rit spirits supply worthless in an 8v8 game. Buffing one would prove a re-visitation of previous tactical nightmares while buffing the other is--probably--not feasible under the current game engine.

To combat this issue, Anet revamped spawning power to lengthen weapon and item spell durations. combined with runes to crank atts even further, this allows the class to boost these specialty spells well beyond the limits of their X/Rt counterparts. Any discussion of buffing the class in a PvP format should start there, since it is the specialty that takes the profession over the top when choosing it over a secondary on another class.

In that way TheHaxor's first argument is flawed. Any argument that looks to spirits as an answer will be, as the mechanic has proven unwieldy at best. Bringing Shamanism into the discussion may win points with roleplayers, but PvPers only care about power/efficiency/effectiveness in their skill use. Speaking personally, when i pvp I couldn't give a flying crap about backstory.

Which leaves us with the primary att: spawning power. The Op and Haxor are correct; its not nearly as good as it could be. But this is not a problem with the attributes primary ability (not really). Strength is a crap att but the skills within make warriors worth bringing. The skills within spawning power are subpar. They need retools or buffs--dependent on their effect--to buff rits higher up the food chain without boosting their already effective skills so high that any secondary can take them and pwn (like the OPs...RA inspired rant).

Farnkly, however, this is not going to happen for a while. There are still too many core issues with balance and overpwoered skills to think about adding rits back into the mix. Between GW2 and overpowered crud already in the game, buffing the primary profession of ritualist is probably going to wait for a while.

GGs

TheHaxor · May 01, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

In that way TheHaxor's first argument is flawed. Any argument that looks to spirits as an answer will be, as the mechanic has proven unwieldy at best. Bringing Shamanism into the discussion may win points with roleplayers, but PvPers only care about power/efficiency/effectiveness in their skill use. Speaking personally, when i pvp I couldn't give a flying crap about backstory.

It isn't roleplaying, it's the god damn concept. It has everything to do with the class. The ritualist was supposed to be a spirit class. The point is the concept obviously didn't work judging by the changes that have been made. They should simply remove the class, which is what I said originally.

zling · May 01, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

If you insist on doing this, fine.

Spirits have proven a largely bad idea in PvP and less effective than other builds at pumping pressure in PvE. There are, ofc, exceptions to this rule but by and large the passive support that most spirits give is toned down to prevent defense webs from taking half an hour or more to break, and the randomness of their attacks makes any pressure offense rit spirits supply worthless in an 8v8 game. Buffing one would prove a re-visitation of previous tactical nightmares while buffing the other is--probably--not feasible under the current game engine.

To combat this issue, Anet revamped spawning power to lengthen weapon and item spell durations. combined with runes to crank atts even further, this allows the class to boost these specialty spells well beyond the limits of their X/Rt counterparts. Any discussion of buffing the class in a PvP format should start there, since it is the specialty that takes the profession over the top when choosing it over a secondary on another class.

In that way TheHaxor's first argument is flawed. Any argument that looks to spirits as an answer will be, as the mechanic has proven unwieldy at best. Bringing Shamanism into the discussion may win points with roleplayers, but PvPers only care about power/efficiency/effectiveness in their skill use. Speaking personally, when i pvp I couldn't give a flying crap about backstory.

Which leaves us with the primary att: spawning power. The Op and Haxor are correct; its not nearly as good as it could be. But this is not a problem with the attributes primary ability (not really). Strength is a crap att but the skills within make warriors worth bringing. The skills within spawning power are subpar. They need retools or buffs--dependent on their effect--to buff rits higher up the food chain without boosting their already effective skills so high that any secondary can take them and pwn (like the OPs...RA inspired rant).

Farnkly, however, this is not going to happen for a while. There are still too many core issues with balance and overpwoered skills to think about adding rits back into the mix. Between GW2 and overpowered crud already in the game, buffing the primary profession of ritualist is probably going to wait for a while.

GGs

the main problem with Spawning Powers is that most of the skills there rely on spirits. you dont want to bring back the overpoweredness of spirits and the endless VoD matches, fine... buff some spirits back a bit so they'll be usable, at least play with cast times/recharges to make them combine well with most Spawning Power skills.
as for all the other useful skills you're talking about, it comes down to Splinter, Ancestor's, WoW and perhaps Protective was Kaolai. that's pretty much it...
wow, so much versatility for the class that's supposed to be the jack of all trades

Leetwalrushunter · May 01, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The concept of necros raising dead shit and Warrior's cunning tactics certainly doesn't have a place in PvP other than AB, yet we don't consider it flawed.

wrong, have u never hurd of minion factory

Melody Cross · May 01, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

the main problem with Spawning Powers is that most of the skills there rely on spirits. you dont want to bring back the overpoweredness of spirits and the endless VoD matches, fine... buff some spirits back a bit so they'll be usable, at least play with cast times/recharges to make them combine well with most Spawning Power skills.
as for all the other useful skills you're talking about, it comes down to Splinter, Ancestor's, WoW and perhaps Protective was Kaolai. that's pretty much it...
wow, so much versatility for the class that's supposed to be the jack of all trades

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

They need retools or buffs--dependent on their effect--

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

It isn't roleplaying, it's the god damn concept. It has everything to do with the class. The ritualist was supposed to be a spirit class. The point is the concept obviously didn't work judging by the changes that have been made. They should simply remove the class, which is what I said originally.

And its not that you're wrong or right, its the principle of the thing.

MasterSasori · May 02, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

That is a stupid argument. Every class gets that bonus as being a primary. People use their secondary for speed boosts in GvG, so it would be pretty stupid to go A/Rt or E/Rt for 1-2 low spec skills.

And this detracts from my point about why Rit is its primary class how? If rits use their secondary as a speed boost and found their role as runners, they still require rit as the first class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

The N/Rt is run in spiritway because of NR/Tranq and because soul reaping is a way better primary attribute. It is run in spike builds because soul reaping can be used as an unbelievable energy source and the necro line can be utilized for spike support. It is run in heroway because necro heroes can play those builds more effectively than they can monk builds and again because soul reaping is superior.

I never denied SR being a way better primary att. You're reiterating things that are already apparent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

No, they are run in GvG because of weapons and ancestor's rage. If those skills weren't strong people would run eles instead.

Weapons and AR would be considered support roles. Seeing how you don't have other classes filling this role is proving my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

As this is the PvP forums, I completely ignored your argument about PvE. Besides, I can't even remember the last time I ran a rit for spirits in any sort of PvE. The groups I've been in run them for splinter and ancestor's rage with some party heal, if they run them at all.

I know its a PvP forum but when you advocate deleting rit permanently, you are also suggesting this for PvE as well so this can be considered somewhere else. And for the record, people still use [Life] and the sort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

As for the off-topic necromancer comment, necromancy deals with the "black arts." I would consider everything a necro does (exploiting corpses, hexes, saccing, life steal, etc.) to be a part of the "black arts." While not as popular now, corpse control was very popular in the past. You still see it in high end PvP (putrid explosion, minions in heroway, wells).

Saying that black arts = raise dead and crap is an opinion on what that catergory means. I can equally say spirits = ethereal spirit weapons and ancestors' rage = angry dead people which would be spirits.

TheHaxor · May 02, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

And this detracts from my point about why Rit is its primary class how? If rits use their secondary as a speed boost and found their role as runners, they still require rit as the first class.

The point was stupid because it in no way proves that a rit is a good primary. You cited the general advantage of any class as a primary in two of your arguments. The rit is simply a one trick pony in GvG, with really no variance from bar to bar. They are stuck as runners because they are simply not good enough to dedicate a midline character to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I never denied SR being a way better primary att. You're reiterating things that are already apparent.

Oh okay since it's apparent then you would agree that taking a rit as a primary is a very minimal increase in power over taking it as a secondary. If that is the case, then why are you still posting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Weapons and AR would be considered support roles. Seeing how you don't have other classes filling this role is proving my point.

...lol

You realize a lot of teams were running those skills on midline eles in spike builds in both HA and GvG, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I know its a PvP forum but when you advocate deleting rit permanently, you are also suggesting this for PvE as well so this can be considered somewhere else. And for the record, people still use [Life] and the sort.

rofl, thanks for proving my point. Life and the sort? It's more like just life and occasionally bloodsong and recup. You realize there are 22 spirits in the class right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Saying that black arts = raise dead and crap is an opinion on what that catergory means. I can equally say spirits = ethereal spirit weapons and ancestors' rage = angry dead people which would be spirits.

That isn't based on opinion. Look up the history of necromancy. You can't equally say anything because everything you said is subjective.

RhanoctJocosa · May 02, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

ffs TheHaxor typical pvp elitist... no regard for my pve rt and her builds. rts happen to be a very balanced and dynamic class that adds alot to gw pve/pvp

payne · May 02, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exploding Burritos

I see as many or more X/Rts than I do rits in pvp anymore... wtf is up with this? Rits need some help, their broken primary is a joke, unless you want some gimmick build like spirit spammer or spirit's strength. Just give us soul reaping instead, N/Rt >> Rt. Come on ANet, hire someone who understands balance beyond OMGNURFSTUFFTHATHURTSMAINECROlolwut?

oO you fail...this is a rage rather then a decent argument...

mods close tthis plz

oO and +1 kthx

Alex the Great · May 02, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

No... they need to be deleted from the game

ya totally, because when YOU don't like something that other people like, YOU should just get to ruin thier fun.

why don't you just quit talking now kkthnx.

but back to rits, the current splinter+ AR+OoS+support heals is very powerful.....for PvE. Rits need more options in pvp, like maybe buffing some other channeling skills with secondary conditions for some utility.

Gregslot · May 02, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Ritualist is useful at pve, spawning power is good because it makes some wapons last longer like Resilient Weapon at heavy conditions+hexes areas, not to mention you can spam them with Attuned Was Songkai, wich is the only e-management skill worth taking to match N/RT, therefore Rit wins at this because of weapons and runes (runes at pve goes beyond +hp because we dont have much craked armor and spike, so armor IS good).
-enough pve

From what i see, spirits in general are very bad. Because most of them takes too much time to cast, costs too much and lasts too little. Shelter is very good example, you take 5 seconds to cast (so ppl got 5 secs to think if they want to interrupt it), costs 25 energy (a very OUCH! for non-eles classes) and dies in no time, and it will die INCREDBLY FASTER if you dont have any points in Spawning Power.

Making Rits use spirits faster (like fast casting) should be the first think they should consider.

And for gods sake, buff some skilsl too... AGONY? Spiritleech aura? WTF?

TheHaxor · May 02, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

but back to rits, the current splinter+ AR+OoS+support heals is very powerful.....for PvE. Rits need more options in pvp, like maybe buffing some other channeling skills with secondary conditions for some utility.

LOL YEAH BUFF CHANNELING AGAIN THAT WORKED SO WELL LAST TIME!

Have you not played guild wars within the last year and a half?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Making Rits use spirits faster (like fast casting) should be the first think they should consider.

And for gods sake, buff some skilsl too... AGONY? Spiritleech aura? WTF?

Buffing some skills isn't going to save the class. Many aspects of the ritualist need to simply be redesigned (see: spirits, which badly need to be changed).

Spirits were initially OP because some of them simply did things that they shouldn't be able to do. That is why they are so bad now.

MasterSasori · May 02, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

The point was stupid because it in no way proves that a rit is a good primary. You cited the general advantage of any class as a primary in two of your arguments. The rit is simply a one trick pony in GvG, with really no variance from bar to bar. They are stuck as runners because they are simply not good enough to dedicate a midline character to.

If you're going to use skills particular to THAT class, why the hell won't you use the primary then. What you're saying is that, omg lets delete so and so but you haven't made a point that you can find something BETTER than this. There is not much variance in alot of the bars that have a designated theme in PvP in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Oh okay since it's apparent then you would agree that taking a rit as a primary is a very minimal increase in power over taking it as a secondary. If that is the case, then why are you still posting?

Because you can't read. I said Rit's primary att, not Rit primary is pretty useless. Learn2Read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

rofl, thanks for proving my point. Life and the sort? It's more like just life and occasionally bloodsong and recup. You realize there are 22 spirits in the class right?

There is alot of pointless repetition in alot of classes. How many Warrior tactics are used? How many Smiting Monks do we see? Blood Necros? Just because a class' att in one section is weaker than the others doesn't warrant deletion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

That isn't based on opinion. Look up the history of necromancy. You can't equally say anything because everything you said is subjective.

Then you can't either so drop it. I don't care if you think Black Magic = Pink elephants, Apple Pie, and SARS, that your opinion.

TheHaxor · May 02, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Because you can't read. I said Rit's primary att, not Rit primary is pretty useless. Learn2Read.

That was the entire point moron. Bad primary attribute with bad skills in the primary attribute = bad primary. Just stop posting because you have no idea what you are even talking about.

The ritualist class is relying on splinter and ancestor's for survival. How the hell can any class like that even be considered useful?

MasterSasori · May 02, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

That was the entire point moron. Bad primary attribute with bad skills in the primary attribute = bad primary. Just stop posting because you have no idea what you are even talking about.

The ritualist class is relying on splinter and ancestor's for survival. How the hell can any class like that even be considered useful?

You stated they need to delete the class because of the primary, I just suggest changing it moron. Everything else is manageable. Learn2Read.

Warding, WoR, OoS, Death pact sig, warmonger, mend body and soul, kaolai

Are u saying those are all worthless as well?

Also outside of PvP, rits still have a substantial part in PvE in their own right and bigger than PvP for that matter as well. Consider them before wanting to delete a class.